S6 E1 - From Thinking to Action Part 1 - Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom

To kick start season 6 of the Profound Podcast, I have a conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom. Together, we explore how W. Edwards Deming’s philosophy continues to challenge prevailing styles of management, and why curiosity, systems thinking, and better questions matter more than ever in today’s digital and organizational landscape.

Lori shares her personal journey from Georgia Tech to the Deming Scholars MBA program at Fordham, describing the “light-bulb moment” that came from discovering Deming’s work. She reflects on learning in an environment without grades, without competition, and with a deep emphasis on cooperation, intrinsic motivation, and real-world application. Her story illustrates how Deming’s ideas resonate with people who sense that “something is off” in traditional management but lack the language to name it.

Dr. Bellows expands the discussion by reflecting on Deming’s later years, his frustration at being misunderstood, and his push to move beyond prescriptions like the 14 Points toward deeper thinking about our thinking. He recounts the origins of the In2:In Thinking Network, the importance of making Deming’s ideas accessible, and why changing words and the meaning behind them matters when changing systems.

Across the episode, we connect Deming’s System of Profound Knowledge to modern challenges in education, large enterprises, and digital transformation. From AI and critical thinking to burnout inside massive organizations, this conversation highlights why real change doesn’t come from tools or methods alone, but from learning to see systems differently, ask better questions, and create environments where people can truly learn.

Show Notes:

http://www.in2in.org/

https://www.in2in.org/contact

Transcript

John Willis: [00:00:00] Hey, John Will again. And it's been a little bit of a layover here for but yeah, we're back and I've got great set of old time guests who's been on many of you. I think you've a lot of people now. You've met Bill and now you've become friends with Bill, so you don't need me anymore. But Bill's been on a show and Bill's brought a friend of Deming, a friend of bill Lori.

Hey, Lori, you want to introduce yourself? Sure. Lori Strom. Nice to 

Lori Strom: be here with you, John. My path to Deming is pretty interesting. So I started out as an undergrad at, Georgia Tech studying molecular biology, computer science. In the end I didn't end up felt following through with my computer science, but learned enough to be dangerous.

But I think all throughout, like my growing up, I always thought there's, some way to. To do better. Something was just off in terms of the, I'm gonna say prevailing style of management, now that I have a term for it. When I, , graduated school I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do.

So I was working in actually in, real estate at this real estate investment trust in Atlanta. [00:01:00]And just by searching, I can't even remember how I found this, but I had found. The Deming Scholar, MBA program. 

John Willis: Oh wow. 

Lori Strom: And at Fordham. So that is actually how I found out about Dr. Deming's work and there was this MBA program.

Fast forward, I end up moving to New York City. I was in the cohort 12 of the Deming Scholars Program and Dr. Bill Bellows was one of my instructors and met Bill when I was in the Deming program. And part of why, when I started learning about the Deming program. It just really resonated with me at a very deep level because having worked out there in various companies and felt like, seeing people doing their best is never good enough.

But nothing is really changing. And so when I read about the, , Deming Scholars MBA program, like it really was a completely different style of learning and, No grades, all following Deming's principles. That's a whole story for another day. But the when I met Bill. [00:02:00] I just, I'm gonna say little bit of like mind Very opened up a little.

John Willis: In fact, he's somewhat infectious. I have to agree. Yeah. Somewhat. 

Lori Strom: Yeah. So then that led to, bill had got me connected to some folks at that point it was Rocketdyne. , It was still under the Boeing umbrella, so I started doing some internships as part of my graduate school experience. And then when I was at the, I was at Huntington Beach with a team that was actually looking at system thinking with Dr.

Ackoff. Oh wow. And, which was really cool. And again, like my mind just at this point, continued to get more open. , And then Bill hooked me up with some folks out in Canoga Park. At the facility there. So I did another internship. Fast forward a few months while I was at that internship, I ended up getting hired and that's how I start my career at the company.

But I started getting closer with Bill and joined the In-2-In Thinking Network to really be part of this like-minded group of folks who are really, in the end, to me it's asking, great [00:03:00] questions about how can we make things better and how can we apply like really good principles to.

To do better in the world, essentially. And so now I'm still with the In-2-In network, but now with the as marketing and communications for the Forum Steering Committee. So that's like the very short version of how I met Bill, how he really changed my life and my, the course of my career and how I'm involved in the network today.

John Willis: That's awesome. So the, I guess the first question I have is like, all right, so you've, you come, my, my son went to Georgia Tech. , So we loved that school. So you, your molecular biology, computer science, like anything, I'm sorry, William, you're listening.

I think he went through the same thing. He didn't wind up going into, it's like engineering, which, he started out. Mm-hmm. And just bounced around and just so he's going back to get his master's but the question, the serious question is that it seems like a big jump. Like how did he get from I'm I've just got a degree from a great engineering school. I am, floating around. I'm doing some [00:04:00]real estate stuff and. This thing that I'm guessing you'd never even heard of Dr.

Deming at that point, that like motivates you to i'm gonna move to New York, I'm gonna go to this room. Yeah. I just see there's gotta be something, that What was the sort of there had to be something that really because that's a big change. I'm gonna 

Lori Strom: say. Yeah. Curiosity which, and that was no paid endorsement for this year's forum thing.

But I definitely tend to be, I was always that kid who asked questions and. Was never really satisfied with, oh, just trust us. This is the way it is. 

John Willis: Yeah. 

Lori Strom: Yeah. And I don't know, and I couldn't put my finger on John, like something, I didn't wanna just go out and be. Now, like a willing worker.

I really wanted to change things at a bigger level, but I also don't even think I had the terminology experience. And so I think it was just a lot of questioning that led me to come across Deming's work. And then it was also like that even before I met Bill, just this [00:05:00] whole like, wow, someone, someone else sees this.

Someone else looks at the world in a different way. And I think in a lot of ways, like summing some of Deming's ideas are it all seemed to make so much sense. And then my questions were like, why aren't we doing this? Like, why aren't more people like aware of this? So I think it was just this deep curiosity about how, where's my place in the world, what do I wanna do?

Is this all there? Is that a lot of questioning that led me to Deming's work and the Deming Scholars program. 

John Willis: And then I guess the question I'd build on that is so what would like you talking about no grades, right? We've read about that's what, that was Deming's gig, right?

He, that he didn't grade. But and I've heard, Dave and Beth Banker should talk about the program. And so a little bit of like why it was special. But I guess the other thing that I'd wanna roll into that and build like in this too. Like we all got it right.

There was always, I've had this call with Bill, when Bill got the light bulb, almost everybody I've interviewed that's a Deming, the, I sort interview [00:06:00] anybody on this show. But anybody who has a Deming background, there is usually some kind of light bulb moment, right?

And we all say, oh my goodness. Like, where is this, where have these ideas been? And everybody has that aha moment calling myself. And but why isn't everybody signing up? Why isn't, why do we still not hear Deming in, I'm just doing napkin math, 80% of the places I go, there's always the person who's I read your book. It was amazing. But again it just seems so obviously correct to us. Yeah. Said that, when you were talking about, but what is the program seems like the program is amazing. I like to hear a little about that.

But then why do you think that is it just once you get there, it's he forces you to do a lot more work or in other words, because it just seems like this should be a course. Yeah. 

Lori Strom: I have a Lori's theories, but I do think like sometimes, and I'll just, I'm gonna speak more generically and why I think experiencing it is [00:07:00] different, but like in the, I think what's challenging is like as people have grown up, like we know a certain way of operating and I think that's why I like prevailing sound management.

We think about this is the way we know to work. People learn that. They learn what success looks like in that world. And I think, as you, you go up, it's the longer you're in it, the, it's almost like the harder it is to question it, because now this is this is what you know, and I think there's some people who are more naturally curious and willing to change their worldview.

And I think there's a lot of folks who like, there's a comfort in what you know and changing it. Even like within the system, it feels almost impossible. And I have struggled with that, like working in huge corporations too, most of my career, where like things in a different way, but you're working within this system and so your level of impact is you know, like fairly small and you're always walking up against barriers.

But I don't think there's, [00:08:00] in a lot of cases, like I don't think there's ill intent. I think that it's just, it takes so much to change the ship. And to change the direction. People truly, it's like you not only have to have the awareness, but then it's like the I, and I love this quote from, I, I think it was ov like that you can't, maybe it was Einstein, I can't remember.

We'll figure, find the right quote. But it's like you can't solve today's problems with the thinking that created. And I think that is telling too, because if you have all these people who've grown up in this style of management, like yes, you can have this awareness, but now we have to use a whole different way of thinking to solve it.

And I do think that like just critical mass to get to that point, it's. Very like overwhelming for me as a person. Let's say I am in a 200,000 person organization, to think about what does it take to change that? I think it's almost impossible, which is where, when even though I, like I'm gonna say now change gears, thinking about going through the Demming program, you're [00:09:00] experiencing a different way of working.

You're experiencing cooperation and not competition and learning for learning's sake versus learning to get a grade. Like those things you can apply. But if you're just applying them like within your team, you still have some sort of sphere of influence that is, may or not get to a point where you really have critical mass in an organization.

Which then I think, like for me, like led to some, burnout and frustration in a way because you're just feel like you're. Constantly rowing upstream, and then there's a point where you're like, how do I put the energy in there? I'd rather go maybe put my energy into help other people have those insights and operate, in a different way.

So I know that's like maybe a roundabout answer to your question. No,

John Willis: that's a great answer because, the I think that is a trap I find myself falling into. I'd rather inspire people. And to your point, it is incredibly hard to change the status quo in a larger and two steps forward, one step back, like all of that. Those cliches are just, [00:10:00] but, and I think maybe at some point you realize just being an evangelist. Is, is easier and a lot more fulfilling too, all probably having Bill, where, when you see people, I'll stop bragging about you Bill here, but no, but when you go out to the In-2-In, it's, you can, you see this web of how many people influenced by him.

I have some of that in sort of my domains and it is incredibly fulfilling. To meet some young person, that five years ago, and it comes up to you and says, you changed my life. And that's just feels a lot better than like fighting your whole career against, a 90,000 person organization that just never, so yeah, no I haven't really ever thought of it, that it was pretty cool. That's cool. Yeah. 

Lori Strom: In, I feel like, feels like a homecoming and it feels wow, these people really get, get me. I think you have this group of folks that you're surrounded with that are.

Fellow questioners who are looking at the world in a different way, who have, I think it also, it energizes me and gives me hope because all of us go back out to our [00:11:00] networks and our worlds and ultimately for me it's a lot about just how I choose to show up in the world and the questions I ask, the things I do.

It was so exciting. I have a special story too. My son, who has a claim to fame of being the youngest forum attendee ever, because I brought him when he was a few weeks old. Oh, wow. When I had just had him in oh six. And I was working at Rocketdyne. He came when he was like a little baby. 

John Willis: That's awesome.

Lori Strom: And he came back with me, last years for him as a 16-year-old now. I thought I'm just dragging him. I'm like, I didn't have high hopes for her. He's gonna like tune in. But by the end of the first day he was, he's mom. He texted me like, can we order the new economics? Like I wanna learn more about this.

And he started asking some different questions. And so it was a completely unexpected. He emailed Bill to start doing some networking with, he's considering engineering, but just like he naturally can see things in a different way, and I'm so excited now to have him as part of the In-2-In family as well, [00:12:00] because it's just.

I feel like that's what it's all about, is just looking at things in a different way, asking better questions, like being around some really great people and not all of us, like we're not people who have all the answers. 

John Willis: Yeah. 

Lori Strom: We're people who ask like different questions and have different ways of looking at things, and that gives me hope for the future with everything that's going on in the world.

John Willis: Yeah, no, I again I attended, I couldn't attend it last year. But I did virtually, but yes, 

Lori Strom: virtually. Yeah. 

John Willis: But I was in your 

Lori Strom: session. Yeah. 

John Willis: Okay. But the first one was just, incredible for me. 'Cause I think I was the only like tech, information technology person there.

But for us, and I've said this many times, for. Information technology at least in the sort of the data center implementation, the large scale business, the way we run technology we've inherited a lot of things we didn't fully understand. Inherited a lot from manufacturing and we know that, like lean for example, lean agile [00:13:00] and lean are a big part of every modern. People, data center organizations. But I think a lot of people just stopped it. So the lean is this weird things that they do in factories, but ours is different. And when you unravel the his history. You start realizing, oh no.

Like I can point to this thing called a Kanban board at Toyota, that we have this little software tool that we use to do our daily software standups.

The thing that was incredible for me was that just to be sitting around people where, somebody would say, yeah, we, we bought in Peter and then we bought in

Yeah. Who else? Like the conversations that were just going on around me were like, and even some of the Bo I, I'm a big complexity guy, and complexity and failure and there was a whole talk about the Boeing, 7 37 MCA system. And there were people literally were involved in that.

It's incredible to have that sort of crossover. And a couple of our people come this year. From, some of the DevOps people who showed up. 

Lori Strom: [00:14:00] Yep. Yeah. 

John Willis: That's cool. No, and and just so yeah, just so we didn't I maybe didn't interrupt you, but the, so just gimme the the quick bullet of like why the program is so special, the the 

Lori Strom: Deming Scholars program.

John Willis: Yeah. 

Lori Strom: Yeah. It makes me sad that the program is no longer around, but it was just really modeled on. I'm gonna say the foundations of Deming's work, like some that I mentioned, like the cooperation, not competition. So it wasn't that we were competing with each other in my cohort, I think we had about 12 folks and we.

It was really about learning the concepts, what was 'cause I remember the first time I read Shewhart's book and remember doing like some of the math to try to figure out like how there was like the foundations of control charts and this and control limits and, statist statistical process control, and just like going through the understanding, we would ask for more homework so we could understand the concepts, but there were no exams.

It wasn't like we [00:15:00] were studying for an exam, but it was really about lifting each other up to make sure that we all knew the materials and then we would have what was called a practicum. Go out and apply the, what we had been learning in the classroom in a company environment. But we had, I think what set it apart is we had, different teachers like Bill we had Gypsy Ranney, we had other folks who were like experts out there.

Like in the field, people who are practitioners and who, people who, you know, a lot of them, like Dr. Orsini who was the, head of the whole Deming program who was, had worked with Deming and in essence were really helping pass along that knowledge. To us and the next generation.

So it was just such a unique experience. It was under this umbrella of a regular graduate business school, but we were really set apart from the business school at Fordham, and we had our own little like cohort, our own little [00:16:00] place to meet and we really challenged ourselves. It was the most educationally challenging and Georgia Tech was not an easy school by any means.

Yeah, 

John Willis: I know that from my son. Yeah.

Lori Strom: Yeah. It was a very challenging school and, but it was such a. Different learning environment that I had ever experienced and to not be like going for what's the bare minimum calculating what do I need to get an A? It was really about learning, which was just, it was a different foundation to operate from.

But that's actually how I got to talk to you more about with Bill is because I was so interested in what he was teaching, got curious, talking to him more, and we had access to our professors and. To folks and we had a library and like we could deepen our learning and, go into any topic that interested us and really help each other out in the cohort as well.

It's just such a unique experience. I'm like, so 

John Willis: it just embodies everything that I can think about the way Deming would've taught. I think it, I just take a little side step right now and that is. One of the arguments, so I did a lot, [00:17:00] I'm very frustrated with the educational system, in so many ways.

I had two boys that went through the education system. They spent, I didn't even, I didn't get a college degree. There's some, I've actually lectured in front of PhD students, brought in people and asked me what school I went to. I said, this PS 61 where I almost didn't die in high school.

Not but, and I'm joking but but I, as my son, my boys were very smart. My oldest boy got in Georgia Tech, which, is not easy to do. And and I really wanted to guide them. I really wanted to understand what, what school system. I did like in, this is what I do.

I just went insane into all the programs and the engineering programs and I actually, met professors, 'cause with the DevOps thing I usually knew somebody in and in a school. It was just so frustrating to, to see how even the higher high school education was and then the college was no better.

Computer science, aig still a big part is compiler design. Can we just get rid of that and just, and I want to segue, 'cause I think this will work into In-2-In here in a minute, [00:18:00] is that one of the complaints about AI today. It does. It's the dangers of not, young people not doing critical thinking.

And I'm like, hold on a minute. I know a lot of people that got MBAs, not the Deming Scholarship one that have no sense, didn't see anything in the 16 or 20 years that they went to school that resembles critical thinking to me. And I think to me that's a big part of I, I just like, even like you talked about Ackoff and systems thinking and I just think there's so little of that, when I think about the problems in larger organizations I think how, and you talked about this, like that sort of pattern of you stick to what you learn and at some point you there's apathy, you give up really. Or you leave. And, but like the missing void. The void is, know, I would say that the two of the four of SOPK which is, the knowledge theory of knowledge. And then appreciation of the system. And again, all four are important but 

Lori Strom: yeah, 

John Willis: but like those things are [00:19:00] gaping, the missing in almost, every, I won't get into politics right now, but like in almost every part of western human civilization, 

Lori Strom: yeah. A hundred percent agree. I even think, like thinking about like the, a child. In that view as well. They're not just, someone who's producing a grade. These are people with their own wants and needs and desires. And it's like, how do you get them to, start understanding and synthesizing what they're seeing in the world and look at how you tap into their intrinsic motivation and not just forcing grades, but it's also, it's challenging operating like within.

The system of today. So there's part like where you, you still have to, get good enough grades so that you can go to. Have your choice of schools, but it's like you still have to ask these other questions about the, what am I really learning? What really interests you? And I think it's just harder to navigate, like once you like see [00:20:00] things in a different way.

And even with AI too, it's like how are people using it? Like I'm really fascinated with my son, he was studying for his driving test and, this was when he was getting his learners' permit and he's yeah, I had a chat. I had just a AI tool. 

John Willis: Sure. Create 

Lori Strom: a learning program for me to study for the Connecticut, like learners' permit.

And he was able to pass that. And it's just like things that he is getting creative with, how he's spending his time and how he's using AI to help him in day-to-day life. Like things that I wouldn't. Think about naturally because it's like, it is a little bit of a different entry point for me as in my late forties than him as a teenager, like growing up with the technologies.

But it's really fascinating is just how fast we have to adapt, but how we still need to be like, I dunno, looking at things more holistically in in general as well. 

John Willis: Yeah. That ability to ask questions and ability to see. All the parts. You know the and, again, I like, I think we just don't do enough a good job.

I've had [00:21:00] CIOs, where I've gotten, or CIOs that I've worked with, where I feel like there's a trust level where I can say, I wouldn't say this the most of my CIOs, but if you want really to change your organization, give everybody a copy. Danella Meadows thinking of systems. Now and let's just start there.

For me that was Senge's fifth Discipline was a very difficult book to read. She seems to sum it down in a, in an easier way. But the point is she just makes system thinking so human and so accessible to the common person, right? And I think I, the simple simplify it, but like sometimes it does just take the simple high level abstraction to change everything.

Lori Strom: Yeah, and it's, I think there's some people, I always maybe call it educational, like there's an arrogance where people are like, want to make it more complicated. 

John Willis: Yeah. I actually 

Lori Strom: think it's more challenging to simplify things. 

John Willis: Yeah. 

Lori Strom: To really spark other people's ahas. And I feel like that's one of our challenges, even talking about like In-2-In about Deming..

Is how do you make it [00:22:00] accessible for folks where you could ask questions in a way and it's, you can see the spark when someone is oh my gosh, like that. I didn't think of it that way, just by like how we're asking questions or the, what we're. The lens like that we're looking at things through.

So I think that's one thing like Bill does really well is like when you like learning from Bill and talking with folks at the forum, it's like I look at our role a lot as sparking those ahas or insights about like, how can each of us show up in a different way? 

Dr. Bill Bellows: Yeah. To build upon what you just said, Larry, is when I met Joyce Aimi, who led the Deming Scholars, MBA program.

And met her. At the first seminar after Dr. Deming died. I don't think she was at the last one, but I know when we met, wait, where she pointed out is that where I grew up was 10 miles from where she lived. I grew up in Middletown, New York. She was in Goshen, and she said something like, so we grew up, we were living 10 [00:23:00] miles apart and we met Los Angeles.

That's 

John Willis: funny. 

Dr. Bill Bellows: And, but the thing that and in the same conversation, I believe it was, she said to me that Dr. Deming's last five years were bar. She said, we're borrowed time. She said he knew, he felt he had a message. That was not being understood and he kept digging. He started off without the crisis and the 14 points and the deadly diseases.

And I heard accounts that his point about ceased dependence on inspection was interpreted as get rid of inspectors and, and the, as an aside, gypsy Ranney, who was an advisor to the Deming Scholars, MBA program, which is really where I got to know her before inviting her to Rocketdyne many times.

And she spoke at in two end regularly. But Gypsy said she once asked Dr. Deming, what they get out of his four day seminar and he said to her, I [00:24:00] know what I said. I don't know what they heard. Yeah. And bill Cooper, who was a founding board member of the In-2-In Thinking Network, and then for, for a couple years, bill was co-president with me and Bill asked Dr. Deming. Bill met Dr. Deming when Bill was the senior civilian at the US Navy's North Island Overhaul facility, which is where planes go when the Pacific Fleet is coming into San Diego. Planes are leaving the aircraft carriers flying into North Island for the heavier duty work.

And Bill. When Bill met Deming, bill was in charge of all the civilians on that facility, which were thousands, and he got to know Dr. Deming as well. And his similar question, Dr. Deming, was what percent of the people who attend your seminars really understand what you [00:25:00] said? And he said very few. And so what I was trying to do at Rocketdyne, in conjunction with Tim Higgins, who's who is the right now, the president of the In-2-In thinking network, what we were trying to do.

Is what Deming was trying to do, which was make his work more accessible. So when Deming wrote the New Economics, which is a dramatic departure from the prescription of the 14 points, and he didn't wanna do the 14 points, but the story I heard was that the publisher said, no, 14 points, no book. Okay, I'll give you 14 points.

But it was the opposite of what he wanted to do and sure enough. Readers fell into the trap of what is the method? And he said, there is no. This is not a prescription. And so likewise, what we were trying to do at Rocketdyne was make his work more accessible. And that's, and that got into thinking about our thinking, which [00:26:00] then, which is what we mean by in thinking Rudy Hernandez.

A former manufacturing engineer at Rocketdyne took some classes with me and Dr. Taguchi's work, and Rudy and I got connected and excited together and it was Rudy. Who got me thinking about thinking, and he was in an MBA program at the time, but he's the one that turned me onto something about our thinking and becoming aware of our thinking.

And in 1999 timeframe, Rudy coined the phrase in thinking I which is a longer story, but remember when it came up with a word I said. I remember saying to him why'd you create a word? And he. We had been studying the work of Edward de Bono, the six thinking hats and he said, one thing you learned from Deb Bono is if you use an existing word and try to give it different meaning that people will lapse back into [00:27:00] the old meaning.

So if you create a new word, then you can give it new meaning and think. You know what I tell people in my graduate class at Cal State Northridge is when Deming used the word quality. He didn't mean it in the traditional way, which is quality of the thing in isolation. In the new economics, he defines quality and he says, A, a product or says or service possessive quality that helps somebody and enjoy sustainable market, which is not me delivering something to you, John, and saying it's good 'cause it met the requirements.

It's me saying, John, how did it work for you? And so likewise. What Deming knew is that as long as he, if there's certain words, if we continue to use traditional words, then we start, then we have to fight the current meaning. And that's a trap. And there's so many words that have to change that you can't change 'em all.

But what Rudy came up with is he said, in thinking is awareness of our thinking. And [00:28:00] I said, so why? Why INI understand why we need a new word, but why IN. And he says, essentially, he says, there's a lot of cool words that begin with, IM interdependent. Oh yeah, that's cool.

Lori Strom: Interconnectedness. 

Dr. Bill Bellows: Interconnectedness, and innovation and things like that. And I thought, that is cool. And it was about a year or so later when Dan Robertson and I met at the very last. Ohio Quality and Productivity Forum, which was easily in its day, the largest annual Deming conference in the United States.

The Ohio Quality and Productivity Forum started in 1987 when Deming was alive, and Deming was a regular, and it was the place for all the Deming people to go to. I heard in its day there'd be a thousand people there. And then after he died, attendance dropped and then again, and I didn't find out about it until [00:29:00] 1997 or so, and I had already had plans to go to New York for the summer, which conflicted with that.

And I thought, so I remember calling them up and I said I can't be there, but can I buy the tapes? And, I think the answer is there are no tapes. If you want the content, you have to come. I was like, okay, you got me. And telling you that's where I met Dick Steele. That's where I met Dan Robertson.

That's where I met the people organizing the whole thing. And towards the end they said this could be the last year because attendance since Dr. Deming died was dwindling. And I remember thinking. You can't stop. This is, I'm just finding out about those things and then the next year there'll be fewer people.

Another projection that this may be our last year, and meanwhile I'm getting to know more and more people in this community. And every year I see Dick Steele there every year. Dan Robertson and what was [00:30:00] exciting about meeting Dan Robertson, they would hand out the attendee list. I clued on to Dan.

One, we bump into each other. Two is we're the only two people I saw at this event that were coming from west of the Mississippi. And so I started kidding him that it'd be nice if there was something on the West coast and everything we're going to is east of the Mississippi and then the next year they're gonna, this is it.

And then finally in 19, now I think it was 2000. No, 1999. I tell you, yeah, it was 1999 was the last year, and at the very end they said, this is it. We're done. And Dan and I were standing next to each other. And one of us said to the other, I think Dan said to me, that's our queue. We're gonna go do this.

And I still have the email from him a month or so later and said, are [00:31:00] we in? Yes. And then so he took the people he knew. I took the people I knew from Rocketdyne, and what we had in mind was, let's create an event.